Is Determinism Self-Refuting?

He Nailed it

A person on Youtube Shorts nailed it. He said:

“Here’s the contradiction at the heart of determinism (it’s where the pedal hits the metal).

“ If you say that our thoughts are causally compelled, you’re saying that that thought is causally compelled. Determinists don’t believe in determinism because it’s true. By their own terms they believe it because they were compelled to believe it true.

“No no no” says the determinist, “no no”, hold on a second. It really is true. The reasons are : da da, da de, da de, dah.”

“But hold on a second. Those thoughts were just as causally compelled as the thought that determinism was true. There’s no way out of this. There’s no truth in a causal universe.”

Well I say in response:

Determinists don’t say “no no no” it’s really true. They say: “Yes, and your thoughts are determined as well as ours”

So that whole statement is true! And yes, that whole statement also is determined. It could be a discussion about anything, about politics for example, but all statements and replies are determined in a determined world.

It’s “true” that there is no truth in a causal universe, as you say. There are however actual events that happen, like statements and discussions, and they are true in that they exist, that’s all.

You say there is no truth in a determined world therefore determinism can’t exist. But I say there is no truth in this determined world now! Something is going on, but it’s not truth. It’s determined input output exchanges triggered by the current state of the brain, the environment, the world, and the universe.

Excellent arguments  against determinism are determined!!!

Physical matter is determined, and that means everything is determined including brains and minds

Determinism of the universe is where you begin. It’s the law of nature. Everything else has to be seen through the light of that determinism.

Determined Already

Philosophers engage in discussion about which way determinism expresses itself in our cultural world of human interactions. “Should criminals be punished?” for example.

But! Determinism is omnipresent and omnipotent. Not a subject for the future. Determinism is creating your next opinion, and next thought.

Not to mention this one and all pressing ones.

You can't have a discussion about determinism because it's already determinism having the discussion. The precise discussion that was determined.

What Will I do?

The search, the inquiry, seems to be about the big questions ; “what is life?, what am I?” And when we know what life is, and what I am, this leads to: “well, what do I do? What actions will I take?  Given what I am, what is the best path?”

Given determinism is the case, life is physical matter obeying the laws of physics. That’s also what I am, body and mind.

To ask “what will I do?” is valid as a question arising in thought, but is not a valid question in itself, because what I will do is determined by physical laws, not by my answer to a question.

Well, could I then sit back and relax and let life unfold exactly as it does? I could, but I could also get anxious and let life unfold exactly as it does. Either way, determinism has won from the beginning. I can’t even bow down to it, unless it makes me.

Nonsensical?

Does determinism refute itself as a philosophy of science, or a logical conclusion of science, successfully? And thus render itself nonsensical?

Or does determinism render all thought and logic nonsensical and at the mercy of determined particle behaviour, operating according to aimless physical laws?

Or both?

My Own Free Will

The thing about determinism is that you start off saying something about it, describing say, one aspect of determinism, and as you continue exploring it you realise all is determined and you grind to a halt.

Because all is determined, anything said about that fact is determined and not a free intellectual  exploration of the situation. And so your thoughts about it run out of genuine validity, and fade away as a sort of fake repetition of words.

Of course that feeling of distrust of determined ideas as genuine searching, is also determined. So what thought you have, any thought, is determined and what you thought before that, and after it is also determined. There is no escape from determinism. 

And yet the free feeling I have about my life is determined, and my forgetting about determinism allows my false but total enjoyment of a life that I may as well be living and creating with my own free will.

Promoting Determinism

You could say: “Well, what is the use of understanding determinism or thinking about it, or discussing it with someone, when all those thoughts are determined, not genuinely self motivated explorations.”

You could say that. However your determined mind and thoughts do occur, and it appears that in the world of determinism one thing leads to another. So thoughts about determinism do tend to lead to more thoughts about determinism and thus more understanding. So it is worth thinking or speaking your ideas because you can’t avoid it.

But it doesn't matter at all whether you are for or against determinism or if you never heard of it. All those possibilities are determined and so you can enthusiastically promote determinism with the accompanying hope that it will catch on.

Don,t Forget Yourself

Even many (if not all) of the hard-determinist philosophers and scientists who work hard writing and speaking to promote determinism, forget to carry it one step further to the ultimate conclusion.

They forget to include their own communication as determined. Well, they would acknowledge that their deterministic views have been formed by determined physical processes, and in that way their views determine what they say.

But I’m talking about what actually is thought and spoken by them in the moment. 

Once every word uttered in the discussion is acknowledged as determined, another investigation begins: “How can a conclusion that is true be arrived at by determined thinking or talking?

It’s not as if you can agree that determinism is true, and that the thinking and viewpoints about that are determined, and then pull out of or back away from that determinism to talk about it, to discuss it. You can only experience determined thoughts, and utter determined words.

This is true for every word about every subject ever said, or that will be said about anything at all.

We are in a play that has been written in the past, in the beginning, and there is no ability or power to change anything now, in this present or any future present.

Our continuous, sensitive, exquisite feeling of subjective experience is the continuous result of physical matter unfolding according to physical law. But how can that also be a truth?

What is Real?

If thought is determined, if conscious and self and all else are determined. Then what is real? 

The whole idea and job of being human is to keep track of the world and make the best choices for survival and happiness that you can. But if those choices are determined, you are not really making them. They are just occurring. 

You could say you are experiencing determined choices as if they are yours, but that becomes a theory, not your real experience. Your real felt experience is that you are actually making those choices yourself. Yet that feeling is also determined. Another theory, but a true theory.

You can think you are on to something and gaining an understanding, yet that thought is also determined.

So can you just ride life as it unfolds, totally moved by determinism? Well the fact is: you are! 

You are riding life as it unfolds, totally moved by determinism.

You are! Even when life is about searching and seeking and asking questions.

You can’t be doing anything else, even when you are doubting the determinism that is actually taking place.

All you Have to do

To live the truth:

All you have to do is switch from a free-will-me perspective, to a determined-nobody-perspective.

But it’s not that easy if you're not in control. And what would be the point? Because the truth, which is this present experience, already is! You are living it! Or it is living you! And well before you can decide to do something else or not.

You can’t step out of a determined life and say determinism is true. That action would be old hat, as it would have already been determined.

If Determinism is True

If you accept determinism as true, that everything is determined: atoms, stars, planets, bodies, minds, all actions and activity.

If you accept that’s all determined, then that’s it. It’s over. There’s nowhere to go. Where would you go from there?

If determinism is true, then all enquiry is over.

If determinism is true, then you are determined.

If determinism is true, my feeling of free will and choice still exists, but it is determined.

Real free will and choice is very different to the feeling of free will and choice.

If determinism is true, and I want to talk about it, what can I say that isn’t already determined?

If determinism is true, it’s already happening, it’s causing you now.

You can’t decide to “try out” determinism. That would be determined.

Acknowledging determinism and deciding to change to that viewpoint isn’t anything at all. This play with opinions and thoughts was determined from the beginning.

Determinism is omnipresent, all encompassing, yet totally hidden.

Where is determinism? You can’t point to it. Only it can.

Determinism is so busy determining everything, you can’t grasp or join it.

To say that the world is indeterminate, is determined.

If determinism is true, then all enquiry is over. Is it over, really? Yes! Because thinking and questioning are not really enquiry, they are a determined illusion evolved by natural selection. The enquirer ,the me, or you, is a feeling, a software product useful to survival and reproduction. It is not what we think it is. It is not a fact.

Taking a Stance

With determinism there is really nowhere you can take a stance. War or environmental damage, any blame of others or negativity, as well as love,  helping humanity and self sacrifice. It’s all determined- even my understanding of that.

Determinism theoretically means you can let go of the whole judgement thing. But because every judgement or acceptance is determined - everything remains the same. Almost. Except for a tiny bit! Maybe!

It’s no Joke

If you say to someone: “Everything is determined”. They might quip back “Including you saying that”, then you can go “Exactly, and also you saying that”. And so on.

The all pervasive nature of determinism is no joke, unless you joke about it in exactly the way it has been determined.

Determinism comes first, and always has, and everything else follows as a result of cause and effect. Determinism is so inbuilt it doesn’t even need to be mentioned. It is simply the universe evolving as you see it.

A Breakthrough?

There may be a breakthrough to be had in terms of a total freedom that is determined. A realisation that causes a shift in perspective. Insights do occur, even though they must be determined. How do we get to this insight and describe it to ourselves? 

The folk psychology feeling, the subjective experience definitely is one of freedom. Freedom already exists and free will is an obvious feeling quality within the mind. Changing free will to determinism by logic, reasoning and science, does not alter the individual’s only experience of life as evolved by natural selection, i.e. the illusion of free will and choice.

But can this innate free will and choice be experienced in a new way that connects it to determinism? Can the understanding of determinism be integrated and acknowledged without having a negative effect on the person? (or even integrated at all?). 

Can we enjoy the illusion of freedom just as much as freedom itself? Can life be the same, better or almost as good, given the clear understanding that determinism is true?

These are excellent questions that arise during the search, and the acknowledgement of truth, but they are all irrelevant.

Determinism always comes first, it is always already operating, and determines any questions that may arise, not to mention the answers. Determinism refutes any free will attempt to explore truth.

Obviously we can feel as though we are exploring truth, and can enjoy the feeling of freedom in life even if it is determined. Yet something is always hidden in terms of grasping the actual process of what’s going on. The feeling, the experience versus the truth. There may be a breakthrough, but it would have to have been determined by physical particles. Not by us!

Self-Refuting but True

Some philosophers and others argue that the philosophy of determinism is self-refuting. Well it is, because any logic in it is determined , and not “thought out”.

The philosophy is self-refuting but the determined behaviour of all life and matter is the true state of the universe. 

When you begin to think about it and try to grasp it, those thoughts themselves are determined. And you can only hope they will lead to something, anything, even lead to themselves. 

Determinism is self-refuting, but true!

It Overpowers Everything

Determinism overpowers everything. It is the only process. It causes evolution and all change. Evolution is determinism.

You might ask: “Is evolution still occurring?” or “Can evolution be overruled?” but it is already too late. Science, theories and these questions are the result of determinism.

Physical particles have interacted due to physical laws and have produced every action and interaction, no matter how much it looks like we choose what we do , think and say, as if we have real free will.

The First Thought

The self-refuting nature of determinism comes at the very beginning. At the first thought.

Your first thought about determinism is determined. Where does that leave you?

In your mind, in your head, your first thought about anything is determined. It is already happening from a source other than you. A source 13.8 billion years ago. 

You are a result of things, not a cause.

Into the Search

Searching is searching and lasts forever. It never ends. It goes on and on.

However science and logic have already said that determinism is true. You don’t need to rediscover it. Not only is determinism true, but it’s operating while you search.Your search is determined. So why not stop searching for more evidence and say: “Determinism is true, and everything you do, and everything you are doing right now is determined.

How close can you get to this truth? Or is it always held away by determinism itself? By determinism being the only cause of your search and your conclusions?

Nice Philosophers

Philosophers of science are usually nice people, with at least one chapter in the book about maximising happiness or pleasure or creating a fairer society, or doing the best we can. Even though they are determinists, often hard determinists.

They ponder and recommend all sorts of possibilities, as if we can carry them out. As if we have the choice to make.

Studies and research have been done on ethical and moral aspects of human societies. But you would have to ask: “Doesn’t the fact of determinism make a mockery of all this? 

Deterministic processes produced humans with brains selected for social interaction and the ability to use knowledge and logic. And it feels to the owners of the brains that they are choosing what to explore and what to think and what to discuss with their colleagues .

But even that high level behaviour is just as deterministic as any chemical reaction in the molecular world. The thinking, feeling, subjectively conscious person is an illusion that has worked its way towards the truth of the universe. In moments of recognising this truth of determinism, the subject negates itself. It refutes its own existence. Incapable of grasping, it must then return to being an illusion holding a theory of what it, itself is.

After Getting it

It can seem that after getting it, after getting a grasp of the evolutionary process and the physical nature of the brain and mind, and after getting that conscious decisions and free will are illusions - after this understanding it seems you would be closer to “the truth”, to the correct and real view of the universe and life, and you could feel somewhat satisfied.

But the truth was already happening before you gained this understanding.

Philosophical or knowledgeable thoughts are produced by the same evolutionary process  as religious , tribal or violent thoughts. Fundamental particles were bouncing before, during and after any thoughts. The particles bouncing are your thoughts and what they do next is what you will do next.

What About Them?

Many philosophers and scientists are brilliant thinkers and lecturers and produce excellent books on physical determinism and the lack of free will and human agency.

I read them and try to get an understanding of their ideas and discoveries and their take on the meaning of life. These people work in fields that provide this information and line of thinking, and even though they realize that everything is determined, including human brains and their own thinking, they still talk about the world as if they have a choice in how to influence it, or interpret it.

Their belief in determinism may cause them to push for criminal justice reform, or for a better distribution of wealth, or for the promotion of atheism, or compassionate treatment of the mentally ill. They carry on as if they had strong free wills, able to act on the world and change it. And they meet with similarly minded people to make choices about how to best move forward in a world which is determined.

Wouldn’t it be more logically consistent of them to just accept that determinism is the only operating force, and just let the world continue to unfold as it must? Shouldn’t philosophers stop in their tracks and admit that every single event, including their own thinking, is determined?

And for that matter, wouldn’t it be more logically consistent of me to allow philosophers to carry on as determined by the universe and not see them as inconsistent?

And for that matter, shouldn’t I see myself as determined and allow them and myself to do what we must including any judgements about each other of how things should or should not be different.

Determinism is in full swing before you have any thoughts that are also determined. You can’t get a handle on it because you can’t step back out of it to get a look. 

A Beautiful Farce

Given all this searching for the real explanation of life and the universe, given the huge effort of this search - the desired result is a lived understanding, an integration of the facts ,that results in true and honest response to life.

And given the truth turns out to be determinism - the whole thing becomes a farce.

Every moment, every thought, and every conclusion is determined from the outset, and any hope of changing or learning or understanding any more than is determined, is a hopeless cause. One we are all engaged in.

But it’s a beautiful farce, because we live it with a wonderful experience of feelings and adventure and belief. None of us can deviate a millimetre from the tracks, yet we love and believe in the thrill of steering ourselves through our lives.

Determined Antideterminism

Say people are debating whether determinism is true, in a world where it is true, this world. In this case the debate is determined. Each person is determined to think they are for or against determinism, and are attempting to convince the other person. How could this situation arise?

The person who believes in determinism must be determined to believe and feel that they have the free will to convince someone who is determined not to believe in determinism. And the person who doesn’t believe in determinism is determined to not believe. Both are totally determined full stop. Every sentence spoken, every thought they have.

How could a determined universe arrive at a point where determined biological creatures discuss philosophical or scientific ideas purely as determined. And at the same time experience a free will feeling of choice and argument, also as totally determined?

If everything is determined you’d think you could just step out of it, vacate the driver’s seat, and it would all continue on by itself. Yet it must already be continuing on by itself while there is no one in the driver’s seat.

Yet there still feels to be!

The World is the Truth

So many scientists, in their books and talks, get to the point where it’s stated that free will, choice, and an autonomous self do not exist, except as an illusion within human life. Which means free will does not exist. And even those that admit the disappointment and sadness in this conclusion go on to tell us more about what to think and what to do.

This would make sense if free will did exist because we could do it. But to say that free will does not exist and then to suggest options about how to deal with that is illogical and conflicting.

Yet because it is said, it was determined. To say that, is as determined as  it is to say something true and logical. The world , with all its movement and action just is, as it is, logical or not, conflicting or not. The world is the result of determinism. The world itself is the truth.